A man was spotted on the Upper West Side tearing down posters of Israeli hostages on Tuesday.
The unknown man who had mutton chops, long grey hair, glasses and appeared to be white, was photographed ripping down the hostage posters on 96th and Broadway.
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According to a witness who asked not to be identified to protect her safety, “He was just calmly ripping them off, crumpling them into balls like it was no big deal. He didn’t seem worried about anybody seeing him.”
But he was seen, and photographed, in a plaid button down, khaki pants and brown hiking boots.
“I was walking by feeling angry about what I was seeing, and realized I needed to take a picture,” she told ILTUWS. “I was so upset that someone could be so callous and not care about civilian lives. Regardless of his political feelings, these are civilians: innocent people, held hostage.”
Anti-Semitic incidents have been happening across the city.
On Tuesday, swastikas were found graffitied outside of and across the street from 2nd Ave Deli on the Upper East Side, and on Thursday, a woman was punched in the face at Grand Central Station. The man who punched her told her, point blank, that he did so because she’s Jewish.
“As a Jew it scares me,” the witness said. “It reminds me of the stories I heard from my grandparents of their childhood in Germany.”
The man pictured above is not alone: posters of Israelis being held hostage by Hamas are being torn down from Union Square to the Upper East Side. Last week, an Israeli student was assaulted at Columbia University after he confronted his attacker ripping posters down outside the main campus library. At NYU, students were spotted tearing posters down outside the school’s Tisch Hall.
That incident, and one of the student’s subsequent apologies, was one of the reasons the photographer decided to go public, she said. “I was inspired by the NYU student who took responsibility for her actions and I thought maybe there was room for education.”
But, she added, actions have consequences. “The world needs to know about this human’s disregard for human lives…I hope he faces consequences for his anti-Semitism.”
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Israeli artists Dede Bandaid and Nitzan Mintz are the people behind the posters. They’ve created a website, kidnappedfromisrael.com, where each poster can be downloaded and shared. You can also follow their project on Instagram @kidnappedfromisrael, where they describe their “Global effort to bring attention to the abducted infants, children, women, men, elderly and soldiers – one flyer at a time!”
“With the clear goal of returning these hostages back home safely and immediately, thousands of people have been hanging photos of the hostages in dozens of cities around the world, pasting up posters that were circulated via dropbox for individuals to print independently.”
View this post on Instagram
“He didn’t seem worried about anybody seeing him.”
Don’t get me wrong, Hamas is evil, and them taking hostages is evil. But the guy who tore down the posters isn’t breaking any laws, any more than the people who put them up, so why would he worry about being seen?
Right.
And yes, the people who put the posters up are in some instances breaking “post no bills” laws.
Then I have to wonder what people would do to posters reminding UWS residents of Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians — something Israel does frequently, especially in Gaza.
>> what people would do to posters reminding UWS residents of Israeli killing of Palestinian civilians
I think you are missing the whole point. Posting pictures of kidnapped children is not a political statement. It’s not being pro-Israel or pro-Israel policy. It’s about humanity. There’s a kidnapped 8 month old baby for God sake! How would you feel if a pic of the children kidnapped by Boko Haram was posted? Would that offend you? Then why not israeli children? What Hamas did was vicious and evil. Those kidnapped and killed were civilians, most of them pro-peace actually. On th either hand, putting up posters of “Israel is killing Palestinian civilians” or “Palestinians are killing civilians” would be political statements that many wouldn’t agree with. No one can disagree with asking to free hostages no matter who they are. That’s why I find those people removing those posters, inhumane and vicious.
I think it may be you who is missing the point.
You are correct that putting up posters of kidnapped Israeli children (and adults) is NOT a political statement. The question for many – including possibly the man who has been tearing the down – is “what possible good will postering the neighborhood with flyers do to help rescue those people? Does anyone really think that putting up a flyer on the Upper West Side of Manhattan is going to have an effect on Hamas, or on helping the kidnapped to freedom?
If not, what possible purpose can/do the flyers serve, other than to fill up the neighborhood with, at best, unnecessary and useless flyers, and at worst to create an eyesore in our neighborhood?
We can all sympathize with the plight of the kidnapped without adversely affecting our neighborhood.
I think THAT may be the point that some are making about these flyers.
Right!
Maybe they were giving him PTSD.
MAYBE- there is a lot of misplaced anger because people are upset about the war crimes Israel is committing against innocent Palestinian civilians in retaliation for HAMAS’ actions??? MAYBE- people are upset that there are not a thousand flyers condemning the actions of Israel?? / Anti-Semitism is horrible and in no way am I supporting it, especially if this was an act of anti-semitism, I just think many people are failing to realize why people might be upset about the flyers / Israel.
Bingo.
Right, this article is very one-sided to say the least.
Your anti-Israel bias shines through. When a people’s only goal is your annihilation, perhaps you’d see thing differently. But somehow, I doubt it. No need to respond. I have no interest in conversing with the likes of you and your ilk.
Ish,
Sorry, but a former Netanyahoo defense minister advocated for the extermination of Palestinians. So pretending that Hamas is alone in its extremism is less than informed.
Furthermore, 20+ years ago, Israel backed Hamas as a way to challenge the PLO, so look how that worked out.
Keep up pretending that Israel is some innocent actor in this disaster. Your stance reminds people of why knee jerk defenders of Israel (such as yourself) are largely not interested in easy to confirm facts that contradict their received world view.
Innocents: Right, most of the kidnapped are innocent to somewhat innocent — all of the adult citizens would have served in the IDF, which has a dubious record re human rights — and where was the IDF? They weren’t watching the border with Gaza.
Now, it’s time for you start expressing some sorrow for the murderous ongoing revenge rampages by Jews against Palestinians in the West Bank. That’s if you want to be treated as credible. Not holding my breath.
You are right in saying that Hamas is not alone in advocating extermination. But their cohort is not the foul-mouthed, crazy extremists in Israel. Hamas is joined by Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Isis, the Taliban. The Israeli extremists have not, cannot and aren’t trying to organize a Holocaust. They are not driving a multi-billion dollar fascist bloody war. There is no equivalence between them and the Islamist fanatics who want, by the way, to eliminate the state structure in the Arab world to create a repressive, Islamist calpiphate in the entire region. Equating the crazy ex-defense minister with the bloody terrorists is a logical error a high school freshman would recognize. (Or maybe just a touch anti-Semitic? Just sayin’)
rsp:
“The Israeli extremists have not, cannot and aren’t trying to organize a Holocaust”
That’s highly debatable.
“Equating the crazy ex-defense minister with the bloody terrorists is a logical error a high school freshman would recognize. (Or maybe just a touch anti-Semitic? Just sayin’)”
No, that was the defense minister at the time. Are you saying the Israeli defense minister is a powerless post?
Changing what I said to suit your ends is called a strawman construction. It is prevarication. That’s a synonym for…
And who’s the current PM of Israel?
Not prevaricating. It was you who said ex-Defense Minister, but it was clear ro me that it referred to a statement made when he was minister, so I did not imply that it was someone out of power.. So no false assumptions for me. Whatever, it’s a straw-man proposition. There was a pogrom. And to mix rhetorical metaphors, these arguments are red herrings to distract from the genocidal purpose of Hamas. Hamas must be destroyed (and the biggest cheerleaders for that, after Israel, are Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab world.) And there must be a strategy for Gaza and the West Bank that promotes Palestinian statehood, liberation and development that the entire international community demands and supports.
Jay is a terrorist sympathiser. A rare breed, but prevalent nonetheless. Don’t feed the trolls.
Trolls. You’re so right. Thanks for calling it. There’s another interlocutor nearby on this thread who sees only Israel as the perpetrator. His catalog of transgressions is factual-adjacent. Many things are almost right; some are actually right. Left out is the other side of the story: 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries after Israel was created. A war against Israel, rejecting the UN partition of land that recognized the claims of both sides, even though there had NEVER been a state of Palestine, let alone one with the same boundaries as the protectorate of Palestine. A war to destroy the young state; Israel prevailed and survived but all Arab powers rejected an Arab (i.e. Palestinian) state. Herding the Arabs who were displaced by the war and by Israel into refugee camps, keeping them in misery as a weapon. There are 4 million now, from an original 750,000 (not 1 million as one troll put it) (And where did the 800 displaced Jews go? NOT into camps!) A refusal by the Arab powers to resettle any of the displaced Arabs. Another war, with the expressed objective of eliminating the State of Israel, ending twenty years of Jordanian control of the West Bank — did Jordan create a Palestinian state? Twenty years of Egyptian control of Gaza. There is so much more. The point here is that both sides have done many wrongs; both have legitimate grievances; Israel has a right to exist. A Palestinian state — accepted in the beginning ONLY by Israel — must be created. Are there extremists now in Israel who won’t like that? Yes! But they won’t prevail. And finally, for the present moment, but soon hopefully to be obsolete: From Golda Meir — my enemy wants to kill me. I have every intention of continuing to live. There’s not much room for compromise. Upper West Side Preachers don’t know everything; um, anything?
You continue to repeat several inaccuracies here.
First, I don’t think I have seen a single commenter here who “Sees only Israel as the perpetrator.” Most people here, whichever “side” they may ultimately fall on, clearly see two sides to this issue.
Second, it WAS ~1 million Palestinians who were displaced by the creation of the State of Israel. It happened in two waves of 450,000 each. This is historical fact.
As for “800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries,” this, too, is not entirely accurate. Many of those Jews LEFT the Arab counties as the State of Israel increased immigration of diaspora Jews. Others left because they preferred not to live under Arab rule.
But yes, SOME were actually expelled – though under the circumstances I’m not sure they all saw that as a “bad” thing. Like the Palestinians, they all wanted their own homeland, and as noted, Israeli immigration policy was in flux at the time and not all Jews were able to go there.
History is rarely black and white; there are shades of gray, and in this case many nuances to the events that began in 1917 with the Balfour Declaration (though it arguably began even before that with the British victory over the Ottoman Empire, giving Britain the Levant to do with as it pleased), then with U.N. Resolution 181 in 1947, and finally with the actual creation of the State of Israel in 1948 (helped along by Zionists in the British government).
It is worth noting that Israel ultimately ignored the partition set by Resolution 181, which is what led to the “diaspora” of the Palestinians, and was one of the precipitating factors in the Arab war against Israel in 1948-1949. (Another was that the partition plan gave Israel 62% of the land, even though Palestinians outnumbered Jews by almost 100%).
Ish,
You think the Israelis aren’t also terrorists in these circumstances? Or are you not sympathetic to Israel’s bombing of civilians?
You’re making sorry excuses for the likes of Hamas. Irony. (No, that’s not mistyping on my part.)
rsp:
Nope, I said “former”. You’ve again misrepresented what I said to suit your ends. “Former” means only that he is NOT the current Netanyahu defense minister in 2023.
He was absolute defensive minister at the time, and he was not fired and removed from elected office for advocating the Nazi policies.
You’re right, there is an ongoing pogrom and a subset of Israelis are directing it at Palestinians. In fact the siege of Gaza is an attempt by the Israeli government to exterminate 2.1 million Palestinians. Irony.
rsp:
” Left out is the other side of the story: 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries after Israel was created.”
Right, 2 wrongs make a right, and you “forget” that those expulsions were not immediate, and often because Israel arranged acts of terrrorism within such countries, Iraq for example.
So it’s not like Jews slaughtered and expelled Palestinians in 1948, and the Arab countries did what you claim in 1949.
How’s that Israeli/Saudi under the table alliance working out in 2023?
rsp:
Nope, those 800,000 Jews were not simply expelled in 1949 after Israel killed and/or expelled 750,000 Palestinians.
Some of those Jews left Arab countries to be in Israel, and some were expelled because Israel arranged terrorist acts in places like Iraq.
You really shouldn’t get your talking points from the likes of RFK Jr.
I’m glad there are supporters of those who hold Americans as hostage. Obviously, it’s perfectly normal to kidnap babies. Thumbs up to you!!
Where are those supporters?
You know the Iran Hostage crisis happen in a context, and was preceded by an invasion of the US embassy Tehran I believe the year before?
This was posted earlier but you aren’t paying attention. So for your very own eyes: It’s a pleasant fairy tale to cast the fate of Jews from Arab countries with you bias but here are facts. Of the estimated 950,000 Arabs that lived in the territory that became Israel before the war, over 80% fled or were expelled. The other 20%, some 156,000, remained. Arab citizens of Israel today are largely composed of the people who remained and their descendants. And don’t quibble about why and how 800,000 Jews left Arab countries after Israel was created. In 1945, roughly 1 million Jews lived peacefully in the various Arab states of the Middle East, many of them in communities that had existed for thousands of years. After the Arabs rejected the United Nations decision to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state, however, the Jews of the Arab lands became targets of their own governments’ anti-Zionist fervor. As Egypt’s delegate to the UN in 1947 chillingly told the General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries will be jeopardized by partition.” The dire warning quickly became the brutal reality.
Throughout 1947 and 1948, Jews in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen (Aden) were persecuted, their property and belongings were confiscated, and they were subjected to severe anti-Jewish riots instigated by the governments. In Iraq, Zionism was made a capital crime. In Syria, anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in Aleppo and the government froze all Jewish bank accounts. In Egypt, bombs were detonated in the Jewish quarter, killing dozens. In Algeria, anti-Jewish decrees were swiftly instituted and in Yemen, bloody pogroms led to the death of nearly 100 Jews. If you see the Jewish out-migration as just a yen to live someplace else again, you are blind to at least half the story. Many contemporary Jews, however, are NOT blind to either half. We see the injustice of holding 4 million people in refugee camps (something that the fleeing Jews were not subject to and 100% the decision of their fellow Arabs) and denied a democratic homeland. Make what you want of these facts and numbers; continue to see only the injustices perpetrated (yes, perpetrated) by one side. That isn’t going to solve anything. Just one more point, and I think any further answers are already here: the Hamas pogrom was NOT for the sake of Palestinian nationhood, liberation or justice. As you know they are not the least bit interested in any of that. Just. Stop. Conflating. The. Two.
rsp:
Your history of the expulsion of some Jews from Arab countries is full of untruths and false equivalences.
Elsewhere in these comments your RFK Jresque world view has been thoroughly debunked.
Simply continuing to repeat obvious prevarications does Israel no long term good.
A sure sign of a weak argument (or a weak arguer?) is throwing personal insults like so much random feces, to see where it will stick. The RFK accusation is just plain risible, he is a deluded, demented and haunted man, whose views are probably not even right twice a day, like a broken clock. On to history (I’m a trained at Columbia historian): Here are some of my sourcse: Rashid Khalidi (September 1998). Palestinian identity: the construction of modern national consciousness. Columbia University Press. pp. 21–. ISBN 978-0-231-10515-6. “In 1948 half of Palestine’s … Arabs were uprooted from their homes and became refugees” and from the in 1947, just over 700,000 of them Palestinian Arabs had their homes in those parts which were to be constituted into a Jewish State by the U.N. (Library of Congress, 1951 Survey of Palestinian Arabs.) There were NOT 2 million, at any rate, so if half of them were displaced, it most certainly wasn’t 1 million. But come on, Jay: the numbers are juvenile; there is a huge refugee, displaced population of Palestinian Arabs, kept in camps by their Arab brothers, persecuted and oppressed by those Arabs and by Israel. Tthe original number is expanded to 4 million. They deserve a nation state; reparations and resettlement of any who actually lived in what is now Israel. Go root around for “data” to refute my numbers. They come from Arab sources. Again, you throw mud around or worse. The Jews set off the bombs in Iraq? Tricky people, those Jews. Did they use the early version of Jewish space lasers?
Jews in Arab countries were persecuted, beaten, killed, robbed and worse. Why is that so hard for you to believe?. I’m not going to waste any more time on this, but there are good sources for this history too. When you calm down, perhaps you can join a constructive fight for a Palestinian state. Something which Hamas will go all out with murder and slaughter to prevent. (And go ahead, have the last word. I’ve made my case)
Don’t conflate the just cause of Palestinians for their own state with Hamas — an Islamo-terrorist cult whose charter calls for the slaughter of Jews around the world. (fact; check it out). They care for Palestinian rights the way that right wing Israeli extremists care, that is, not at all. The last thing they want is a democratic, Palestinian state. Hamas uses civilians as shields and simply does not care about civilian deaths; oppresses Gazans, whom they rule (most Gazans abhor Hamas). What they did was a deliberate, anti-semitic massacre. If you can’t live with condemning that, then you join them. If you think that posters about the hostages should be ripped down because Israel mistreats Palestinians, then you are a historical illiterate. Hamas has had billions of dollars to create a model civil state in Gaza, but has used the money to support their genocidal mission (and, by the way, support their leaders living in luxury around the Middle East but most decidedly NOT in Gaza). Their goal is to create an Islamist caliphate throughout the region, not confined to the land that is Israel. The only regime that is warm to Hamas is Iran — a decidedly non-Arab tyrannical, oppressive regine, that yearns for hegemony.
RSP:
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! For stating what should be obvious. Just as the small faction of fundamentalist mullahs and others have co-opted Islam, but do not represent the overwhelming majority of Muslims, who are peaceable people who simply want to practice their faith privately; and just as the fundamentalist Christian sects have co-opted Christianity and the public eye, but do not represent the vast majority of Christians in this country; so, too, has Hamas co-opted the Palestinian “cause,” even though they do not represent the vast majority of Palestinians.
It’s not that difficult to see and understand if one tries. The problem is that too few people try. They simply accept what they are fed by the (mostly) one-sided media in this regard, and so “Mamas” becomes “the Palestinians.”
I wonder how many people know how often Israel simply goes and takes Palestinian land in order to build Jewish settlements – and kills entire families if they fight to keep THEIR land. Of course, no one wants to know this, because it goes against the narrative they are taught, and prefer to believe.
And that’s just ONE example.
I would add, since I know someone is going to say it, that being opposed to Israeli POLICY is NOT anti-Semitism.
Ian Alterman: many Jews (not the anti-Israel ones) inside and outside Israel are painfully aware of what goes on in the settlements and the West Bank, and have been actively working for justice and a Palestinian state. for years. Whenever we got close, we were stopped by fanatical opposition and inept leaders. (Rabin assassinated; Arafat stubborn and afraid).
That said,both Israel and the Palestinian leadership have failed their people. This is NOT about who was where, on what land and when; dialogue stops when there is a claim that “we were there first”. Both peoples are there, now, and neither is about to leave. The choice is between an equitable two-state solution, or never-ending war, bloodshed, denial, and the tragic stymieing of progress, No one who hates Israel and wants it destroyed can be part of that process. And, yes, criticism of Israeli policies can, and sadly SOMETIMES is, anti-Semitism. And one-sided, not acknowledging the decades of anti-Jewish laws, practices and policies in the Arab world. But if all we do is rehearse old horrors and wounds, we are stuck there. We can equitably give both sides the most important things — liberation, nationhood, and security.
You continue to mis-use historical data. I guess at some point numbers do matter, so here’s fact, not fantasy: Of the estimated 950,000 Arabs that lived in the territory that became Israel before the war, over 80% fled or were expelled. The other 20%, some 156,000, remained. Arab citizens of Israel today are largely composed of the people who remained and their descendants. And don’t quibble about why and how 800,000 Jews left Arab countries after Israel was created. In 1945, roughly 1 million Jews lived peacefully in the various Arab states of the Middle East, many of them in communities that had existed for thousands of years. After the Arabs rejected the United Nations decision to partition Palestine and create a Jewish state, however, the Jews of the Arab lands became targets of their own governments’ anti-Zionist fervor. As Egypt’s delegate to the UN in 1947 chillingly told the General Assembly: “The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries will be jeopardized by partition.” The dire warning quickly became the brutal reality.
Throughout 1947 and 1948, Jews in Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Syria, and Yemen (Aden) were persecuted, their property and belongings were confiscated, and they were subjected to severe anti-Jewish riots instigated by the governments. In Iraq, Zionism was made a capital crime. In Syria, anti-Jewish pogroms erupted in Aleppo and the government froze all Jewish bank accounts. In Egypt, bombs were detonated in the Jewish quarter, killing dozens. In Algeria, anti-Jewish decrees were swiftly instituted and in Yemen, bloody pogroms led to the death of nearly 100 Jews. If you see the Jewish out-migration as just a yen to live someplace else, again, you are blind to at least half the story. Many contemporary Jews, however, are NOT blind to the either half. We see the injustice of holding 4 million people in refugee camps (something that the fleeing Jews were not subject to and 100% the decision of their fellow Arabs) and denied a democratic homeland. Make what you want of these facts and numbers; continue to see only the injustices perpetrated (yes, perpetrated) by one side. That isn’t going to solve anything. Just one more point, and I think any further answers are already here: the Hamas pogrom was NOT for the sake of Palestinian nationhood, liberation or justice. As you know they are not the least bit interested in any of that. Just. Stop. Conflating. The. Two.
“The Hamas pogrom was NOT for the sake of Palestinian nationhood, liberation or justice. As you know they are not the least bit interested in any of that. Just. Stop. Conflating. The. Two.”
I am not conflating anything. Both sides have committed atrocities and war crimes. Both sides have culpability in the hostilities. The majority of the Israeli PEOPLE and the majority of the Palestinian PEOPLE support an end to the violence (on both sides) and a two-state solution. It is the hardline factions on both sides that continue to engage in hostilities and to prevent any movement toward a two-State solution.
True, Hamas’ attack was NOT for the sake of Palestinian nationhood (other than to the degree that they believe that violence is the only way to achieve it). But Israeli soldiers killing Palestinian families who are simply trying to protect their homes and land when the Israelis decide they want it for “settlements” (which has happened dozens of times) is not about Israel’s “right to exist” either.
There are bad actors on both sides.
rsp:
“In Egypt, bombs were detonated in the Jewish quarter, killing dozens. ”
You may want to look into who planted those bombs.
Ah, yes! Of course it was the precursors of Jewish space lasers that set the bombs off. How could I have missed that? When the Egyptian government was provoking the pogroms and riots, why wouldn’t the Jews do that? Crafty people, those Jews. Because, God knows, they prevailed in that struggle. Just picked up their pre-packed bags and left with, um, nothing. You know, Jews always keep their bags packed. And, for the sake of argument, what about the other countries? If that’s the best you can do, Jay, maybe go back to some primary sources?
rsp:
It’s well documented that bombs exisited in the 1940s. And it’s established history that Israel committed terrorist acts in Arab countries after 1948 so as to provoke discrimination against Jews in those countries.
As forJewish space lasers, because of the reality of the Israel planting bombs, you’re the one who believes in such lasers. Irony.
“Primary sources”? Whatever Zionists claim isn’t always the truth, no matter what you like. And in fact you’re the one who won’t check easy to confirm facts that contradict your invalid world view.
Nothing’s stopping people from putting up posters showing the faces of Palestinian people harmed in this war. Humanization is necessary. No civilians’ lives and safety should be shrugged off.
And nothing wrong for people taking them down, it’s an eyesore and against the law!
But posters of kidnapped Israelis aren’t?
Imagine if there’s no heaven.
This man was actually UPHOLDING the law; the ones who broke it were the people who hung the posters – which is illegal. To suggest that this man’s actions were “anti-Semitic” is not simply absurd, but outrageous and insulting.
So what!
It’s an eyesore…. I rip them down too, and so do my neighbors. There’s no reason for that trash should be up cluttering our streets with litter. Nobody wants to read that and has nothing to do with anything in New York City, but littering our streets..
You know these hostages are babies, toddlers, kids, grandparents and civilians right?? Who are very likely being tortured awfully by Hamas right now. I’m horrified that these commenters live next to me on the upper west side.
They’re so callous with their “if it doesn’t affect me then in don’t care” attitude. Pathetic.
“You know these hostages are babies, toddlers, kids, grandparents and civilians right?? Who are very likely being tortured awfully by Hamas right now. I’m horrified that these commenters live next to me on the upper west side.”
Yes. But even if one of those people has family on the UWS, what, exactly, does putting up these posters have to do with the UWS or the residents here or anything else? Is it going to effect any particular action on anyone’s part? Hamas? Local politicians? ??
People have a right to support all kinds of causes, but if we simply allowed everyone with a cause to put up flyers for them, we would have every available surface covered in flyers (some flyers covering others, thus making them moot) – which is exactly what the UWS got away from when that was the case in the 70s and 80s. It is why there are people like him taking down the posters (which I, too, and many other people I know, did for years in order that our neighborhood and community was less ugly.)
One can feel sympathy for the victims and those who were kidnapped, and can express that in many ways. But putting up a flyer does not help in any way at all. It is not going to get the kidnapped people back. Sympathy can be expressed without creating eyesores.
AP,
Evidence for your torture claim?
There’s plenty of evidence that Israel tortures Palestinian prisoners (who are often kidnapped), BUT 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
AP,
Gots any evidence for your torture claim?
There’s plenty of evidence that Israel tortures Palestinian prisoners (who are often kidnapped), BUT 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
Tearing down posters of kidnapped babies is about as low as you can get. You’re either an anti semite or you need a lobotomy.
Sheeh:
“You’re either an anti semite or you need a lobotomy.”
Why because I know the difference between tearing down illegal posters and kidnapping babies and you don’t?
Sheesh Eff Jay:
“You’re either an anti semite or you need a lobotomy.”
Why because I know the difference between tearing down illegal posters and kidnapping babies and you don’t?
“Why because I know the difference between tearing down illegal posters and kidnapping babies and you don’t?” No, you’re a moron because what you MEAN is “I know the CONNECTION between tearing down illegal posters and kidnapping babies,” because the “difference” between the is difference between apples and oranges.
And BTW, there is NO connection between them either.
Ian,
You need to have bothered to read the comment to which I was responding. You look stunningly ignorant here.
Agreed. Vile people commenting here. Particularly Mr Eyes on the Street
My takeaway just looking at that guy is that the upper west side is not a place to live anymore. Brodway from 72 to 96 is the new Bowery. Give up now and move to Riverdale while you search for a suburban home. Zabars is a hop skip and jump even from Irvington.
“Just looking at that guy….” What the heck does THAT mean? Ever hear of judging a book by its cover. What the hell do you know about this man simply by looking at him? What kind of person are YOU to be making judgments based solely on what a person looks like?
Ian,
The spelling of Broadway suggests that Cartmanbrah is spouting a received talking point.
And, Zabar’s ain’t a short trip from Irvington, which suggests a lack of familiarity with NYC and the lower Hudson.
Also, one can’t just buy a home on Riverdale. Many of the transactions are private, in other words, there’s never a real estate listing.
Jay-what a stupid asshole you are. please come out of your parents’ basement and see the world.
Na,
At least I’m some what familiar with the Upper West Side, know how one would have to buy a house in Riverdale and have been in Irvington NY.
I can tell you didn’t even read Cartmanbrah’s comment.
This all began with the creation of the State of Israel, which displaced almost a million Palestinians already living in that area – for almost 2000 years. [Despite this and the remainder of my comments, this is not an opinion for or against the creation of the State of Israel; only what it factually caused.]
Israel then actively continued to balkanize the Palestinians (to say nothing of denigrating them and creating a false narrative of their intentions; more in a moment) and created what amounts to a policy of apartheid. Israel then continued to aggravate and provoke the Palestinians by forcibly continuing to displace them, co-opting what little land they still had in order to build Jewish settlements and killing them (with impunity) when they dared to fight against this.
Israel also continuously engaged in wildly asymmetrical warfare; Palestinians would use the equivalent of sticks and stones, and Israel would retaliate with missiles and air strikes. Even when Palestinian attacks included rocket launches into Israel, they were mostly ineffectual, while every response from Israel was not only hugely out of proportion, but massively deadly. It is a policy of “showing who’s boss.” And they are doing this right now.
Essentially, Israel became what they were escaping from: overlords and conquerors who wanted them all dead. In fact, with the exception of a “Final Solution” (which I am sure Mr. Netanyahu would love to apply), the plight of the Palestinians in Israel is frighteningly similar to the way the Nazis forced the Jews into smaller and smaller areas, until it was easier to “manage” them (economically, politically, militarily) and even kill them (with impunity).
Again, while this is not a judgment for or against the creation of the State of Israel, you cannot simply arbitrarily draw a line around a random area of currently occupied land, state that it is now a new country, and not expect the people who have been living there to be angry and fight for what was taken from them – and to be fully justified in doing so. Creating a million refugees from their own land overnight (after ~2000 years) with the stroke of a pen is going to have consequences. And Israel has done nothing but exacerbate the problem from Day 1.
Funny how no Arab nation wants the Palestinians, but it’s Israel that are the oppressors.
C’mon, Ish – you’re smarter than that! The two are not mutually exclusive. And you were doing so well. Try harder.
I could say the same for you, sans “you were doing so well”.
This looks to be a point well made.
Some years ago, a Netanyahu defense minister, who was defense minister at the time, called for the extermination or expulsion of all Palestinians.
That’s not quite death camps, which is the Final Solution of the Nazis, but the Nazis started the mass killing of Jews immediately after invading the Soviet Union and eastern Poland in June of 1941, while as you likely know the “Final Solution” came out of a conference at a suburban Berlin hotel in 1942.
So: the Final Solution comparison is apt, unless one requires a hotel convention and the construction of massive death camps in fixed locations.
Strange that we are talking about ~250 Israelis (and others) kidnapped by Hamas, while, as of 9/23/23, over 5,000 Palestinians are being held in Israeli jails, including over 1250 “administrative detainees” (Israel refuses to explain what this means); 170 child prisoners; 33 female prisoners; 300 prisoners who are citizens of Jerusalem; 200 who are citizens of Gaza; 4 members of the Palestinian Legislative Council; and even over 100 prisoners still being held as a result of the 1949 uprising (yup, men in their 80s and 90s). Of these “not kidnapped” (…) prisoners, 560 are serving life sentences, 40 are serving more than 40 years, and 432 are serving at least 20 years.
But, of course, NONE of these people were “kidnapped” by Israeli forces; they are simply “political prisoners” (though proof of their guilt is hard to come by).
How many babies has Israel kidnapped and are being held hostage?
Yeah, keep defending terrorosts. ?
The fact that you refuse to concede that Israel has been terrorizing the Palestinians since the inception of the State of Isael – which was created by the displacement of almost 1 million Palestinians – simply shows your ignorance of history and your one-sided, spoon-fed narrative.
…and nearly 11k+ women and children were sex trafficked in the US. Thought since we were talking about numbers, hostages/ kidnapping, deprivation of all kinds while experiencing untold suffering at the hands this might be a good time to pop this fun fact in. And the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators are of one kind-men.
Just thought a gruesome homegrown snack to interrupt your focus on things we can only turn into another righteous us against them divisive media driven crisis might help re-focus concerns. If the numbers are what’s important…
Our “fellow” countrymen put both sides to shame.
In discussing the subject of sex trafficking, you say, “And the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators are of one kind-men.”
That is an oft-stated – and utterly inaccurate – claim. There are far more Ghislaine Maxwells (the female “recruiter” for Jeffrey Epstein) than most people are aware of. It is simply that the men are more prominent, while the women are more “in the background.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/modern-day-slavery/202303/sex-traffickers-the-hidden-role-of-women#:~:text=Many%20people%20are%20shocked%20to,US%2C%20female%20traffickers%20are%20common.
Well friends, brother John, a well known and another UWS’er universally loved, said it right.
I posted his comment way above but in case you missed it, here it is again:
Imagine there’s no heaven.
If you need a little help, it basically means the root of all women’s and men’s problems is her/his belief in a god. As in, “my god is the only god”, “god is on my side”, “god, you’re guilty” and more so, god damnit all, we aren’t born racists. We are born bigots. We aren’t born haters.
But look at us now.
Shoulda proofread my post above.
It should read “we AREN’T born bigots.
Maybe the editor could fix that for me or allow for an edit feature?
Thanks
“Imagine there’s no heaven. If you need a little help, it basically means the root of all women’s and men’s problems is her/his belief in a god.”
That is a common misunderstanding of Lennon’s lyric.
Lennon was NOT anti-God, anti-faith, or even anti-religion. He was opposed to organized mainstream hierarchical religion. He himself believed in God (though may not a “personal God”) and was a huge fan of Jesus and His ministry. One of the most famous photos of John even shows him wearing a small cross around his neck.
You get closer to the issue when you cite specific “sayings” like “my god is the only god” or my God is better than your God, etc. THAT is a real problem.
But merely believing in God, having faith (of any type) and/or practicing a “belief system” (i.e., religion) is not the problem. That was NOT what Lennon was suggesting.
Hi Ian:
I don’t want to debate whether John believed in a god (Lennon described his own belief in God by quoting the Bishop of Woolwich, saying, “… not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us”).
Remember when John also said: “Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn’t argue about that; I know I’m right and I will be proved right. We’re more popular than Jesus now. I don’t know which will go first – rock & roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me.” Ahhh the shit storms in the ’60’s.
We can assume he means “the disciples”, those here on the ground, are the problem. Hey! That’s us!
I simply point out- and to correct your comment above- I state that if it were not for a faith in a higher being who is “the only god”, the “god on high”, and that “god is on our side”, the “side of the righteous”, we’d have a lot more pleasant time on this planet and we’d be much more generous and loving to our neighbors. We have long ago evolved beyond such paganism. I think. Mostly?
Personally, I am anti borders and believe the whole place ought to be open to everybody everywhere but that’s a long shot around here. The military industrial complex is alive, growing and gleaming.
As I said, and substantiated by studies, racism and bigotry are learned/taught. The greatest factor in teaching hate, in my opinion, is a faith in a righteous god on high that forgives your sins and gives you strength over your adversaries. If you do the crime, you pay the fine, do the time. All you gotta do is look at the GOP Congress today to get this- obstructionism, divisiveness and idolatry are the hallmarks of today’s GOP. They fall back on their faith whenever they cannot explain the truth.
I hope this makes my point clearer.
As for the fellow ripping down the posters, I’d prefer if he left them alone, simply to keep the terrible issue of Israeli/Palestinian hostiles up front and center. We all need to object to the genocide.
Thanks
“I state that if it were not for a faith in a higher being who is “the only god”, the “god on high”, and that “god is on our side”, the “side of the righteous”, we’d have a lot more pleasant time on this planet and we’d be much more generous and loving to our neighbors.”
If faith/religion is used in this way (as a cudgel, as an avenue for judgement, etc.), then, yes, it is and has been a problem.
But most believers do NOT see or use their faith in that manner. Most not only practice their faith privately and quietly but can also be (and often are) some of the most loving, giving, generous, selfless and loving people around.
And as a general matter, while the “church” certainly committed its fair share of atrocities over the centuries, it also, and particularly as it “grew up” and out of its institutional arrogance, became a model for charity and good works.
So I think you may paint with too broad a brush here.
As for, “The greatest factor in teaching hate, in my opinion, is a faith in a righteous god on high that forgives your sins and gives you strength over your adversaries,” I don’t see this at all – again, with the exception of those who “use” their faith/religion as a cudgel or “support” for arrogant or mean-spirited judgment. But again, I do not believe that is true of the majority of those who believe in a “personal God.”
It is the way in which a faith/religion/belief system is taught and passed down that determines the degree to which it becomes either hateful or loving. In my 65 years of experience – as a Christian, as a minister, as a human being – I have seen more of the latter than the former.
Here’s a fact that seems to be getting lost in all of this.
On 1013, Israel demanded that Palestinians evacuate the Northern part of Gaza, and either move South or leave Gaza. Yet Israel continues to engage in air strikes on the Southern part of Gaza. So Israel is literally “herding” the Palestinians into a kill zone.
Still believe that Israel is not engaged in a quasi-genocide?
Also, on October 13, as soon as Israel called for the evacuation of the Northern part of Gaza in advance of its intended invasion, I wrote in an FB post, “This move by Israel has NOTHING to do with hostages, attacks or anything else. This is an attempted opportunistic land grab. Period.”
Yesterday, the official U.N. reporter for the Middle East stated that the U.N. now believes that Israel is indeed attempting to effect a huge “land grab” (she used the same phrase I did nine days earlier).
As a related aside, Israel has already MORE than “compensated” for the deaths of 10/7. In fact, Israel has now killed TWICE as many Palestinians in air strikes and other military actions as Hamas killed on 10/7 (and this includes children, and some babies). And Israel has left 10x more Palestinians homeless. So when is a sense of “parity” reached? How much is enough? Yes, the hostages still need to be released. But an invasion of Northern Gaza by ~300,000 troops is NOT going to make that happen. In fact, it is far more likely to give Hamas reason NOT to release them.
If Israel is not attempting a land grab (as well as a quasi-genocide), what need is there now for an invasion (and possible occupation) of Gaza? It is absurd overkill, and both the U.N. and much of the global community sees this and has called for Israel to refrain from the invasion. But Israel doesn’t give a shit and is ignoring all calls for restraint.
Still think Israel (and their enablers) are the “good guys?”
There is SO MUCH misinformation and poor history flying around that it would be impossible to address it all. Suffice to say that a few things are true:
-There have been atrocities, war crimes, and other acts of “terrorism” on BOTH sides throughout the decades.
-Israel has ALWAYS engaged in asymmetrical warfare with Hamas; Hamas lobs a few ultimately harmless missiles into Israel, and Israel responds with massive air strikes on Gaza, killing hundreds, maybe thousands. This has been true in every case. It is even true here; Hamas carries out a vicious attack, killing ~1,800 Israelis, and leaving ~25,000 homeless. Israel has ALREADY killed over 4,000 Palestinians, and left 300,000 homeless. But this is not enough “parity” for them, so – despite calls from the U.N. and much of the global community to “cease fire,” and stop the hostilities – Israel I
INCREASES the air strikes AND engages in a ground invasion of Gaza, which will kill thousands more Palestinians (while possibly doing little or no damage to Hamas at all – and certainly not helping to get the hostages back), to say nothing of the hundreds or thousands more Gazans who will die as a result of the humanitarian crisis. Israel believes (sadly, accurately) that they can continue to do this with impunity.
-The official U.N. reporter on Middle Eastern affairs has now called Israel’s continued actions a “land grab” – the same phrase I used when the evacuation of Northern Gaza was announced nine days ago.
-Israelis increasingly blame Netanyahu for this entire mess (since he has always run on a “safety” platform, and yet COMPLETELY “missed” the most horrific Hamas attack ever) and calls for his resignation are increasing, both inside and outside Israel.
All of these are indisputable facts that need little or no “history” to support them (in the sense of the history involved in the debate over the creation of Israel, etc., etc.)
I want to add one more fact to counter a long-held false narrative, one that found its way into this debate as well. It is a lie that the Arab countries “refuse” to take Palestinian refugees. Here is the actual fact. Out of a total of almost 6 million Palestinian refugees currently in diaspora:
Jordan has 3,250,000 Palestinian refugees
Syria has 650,000 Palestinian refugees
Lebanon has 400,000 Palestinian refugees
Egypt has 250,000 Palestinian refugees
Saudi Arabia has 275,000 Palestinian refugees
Interestingly, Chile has taken in 500,000 Palestinian refugees – the largest Palestinian community outside the Middle East.
So let’s stop with the B.S. about Arab countries taking no responsibility for Palestinian refugees. It is a bald-faced lie.
You are being disingenuous in my opinion. Up to now, all your answers were about politics and were quite anti-Israel. Now that I suggested that the posting of flyers is not political statement but a humane one, suddenly you’re giving a different lame reason that it is an eyesore to the neighborhood or that it is not going to have an effect on Hamas, or on helping the kidnapped to freedom.
Meanwhile I’ve now read most of your other very long replies and I can see how even more disingenuous you are. You have spent a lot of time refuting the statements of every pro Israel reply and you always say ‘These are the indisputable facts’ with such a tone of superior authority and self-righteousness. Yet you SO misrepresent the facts and the intentions of Israel! It is obvious that you are an Israel hater hiding as a ‘neutral’ very well-informed individual. I am frankly shocked to read that you are a man of church because I don’t sense love, generosity or compassion in your words! I see self righteousness and rage. On a positive note, I am also surprised that you are over 65 yo since you show a lot of stamina in your animosity. Here are just a few of the statements in random order that you’ve made and that I’ll reply to:
>”It is a lie that the Arab countries “refuse” to take Palestinian refugees”
Most people know that there are refuge camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc.. The complain is not about taking them but about how they are treated there. Most still live in their original camps, many are not allowed to work, keeping them dependent on the UNRWA. Most never got the nationality of the country they reside in, even when they are 2nd and 3rd generation born there!! I cannot imagine France keeping its emigrants in camps after 75 years or not allowing to have jobs. It would be a scandal!
> The majority of the Israeli people and the majority of the Palestinian people support an end to the violence (on both sides) and a two-state solution.
Wrong! Watch some of the videos of Corey Gil-Shuster such as https://youtu.be/Ry6kpYFHnxs?si=KMYTy0CHtfBECTZN. You’ll see what ALL Palestinians of the West Bank reply when they are asked about a 2 state or 1 state solution. They don’t want either!! The only solution they want is all the Jews out, and all the Palestinian refugees coming back and taking over all that Israelis have built for 75 years. This answer is quite universal among the Palestinians, they truly want no less than from the river to the sea, and Juden free. It’s shockingly true even among intellectuals and educated people. I’ve heard many, many interviews showing that the Palestinians of the West Bank and those outside of Israel have no concept whatsoever of the reality of what Israel is in 2023 and they are totally unrealistic. So you are wrong. Unless a new Palestinian leader educates them toward peace or forces a peace solution upon them, it won’t happen.
> Palestinian exile in 1948 and Jews from Arab countries
I’ve never heard that a million Palestinians left Israel in 2 waves during the Nakba. According to Wiki, it’s about 700K and that’s what I always heard too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba. And yes most Jews from Arab countries were expelled from there though they had lived there for centuries and loved their countries. When the 1941 Farhud pogrom occurred, Jews were making the majority in Bagdad believe it or not and many had lived there since the Babylonian exile in ~600 BC, when Bagdad was close to Babylon. Similarly in Tunisia, many Jews in Djerba are descendants of the ‘Cohanim’ – high priests of the 1st temple that took refuge in Tunisia at the time of its destruction. Most Jews from Syria, Egypt, Irak, Yemen were expelled, their nationality taken away, together with their belongings. Morocco is the only Arab country where Jews left out of religious ideology and love for the promised land. In Tunisia where I was born and grew up and perhaps in a few other Arab countries, Jews were not explicitly expelled but they were made undesirable. Many new resolutions were obviously intended for Jews to leave. For ex, lawyers who were mostly Jewish were required to start deliberating in the courts in Arabic instead of French. Jewelers who were mainly jewish couldn’t buy their monthly gold reserve or buy a reduced amount etc.. plus there were mob attacks with synagogues burned, jewish stores destroyed and several Jews killed. So Jews knew they had to leave and they did. None of them went to live in refuge camps, no one requested and got millions in help from the UN, no one is demanding a return to their stolen homes or stores. They just started again from scratch in France, the US or Israel and they rebuilt themselves a new life. That’s how Jews are. They work hard and within a generation, they are successful and able to contribute to their new society. That’s part of why they are hated, because they succeed in all areas!
> But this is not enough “parity” for them, so – despite calls from the U.N. and much of the global community to “cease fire,” and stop the hostilities – Israel INCREASES the air strikes AND engages in a ground invasion of Gaza, which will kill thousands more Palestinians
I am sorry you have no moral clarity and can’t see the difference between the purposeful targeting of civilians for massacre and the tragic loss of civilian life during the course of a war, in particular when Hamas hides behind its own civilians on purpose while daily shooting thousands of rockets on Israel. Counting the number of killed is not presenting a fair picture of the situation. During WWII, the United Kingdom suffered around 70,000 civilian deaths while the Germans nearly 2 million. By your accounting logic, this would mean that the UK was the bad guy and they should have “ceased fire”, while the Germans were the real victims.
> In fact, with the exception of a “Final Solution” (which I am sure Mr. Netanyahu would love to apply), the plight of the Palestinians in Israel is frighteningly similar to the way the Nazis forced the Jews into smaller and smaller areas, until it was easier to “manage” them (economically, politically, militarily) and even kill them (with impunity).
This is where you go completely banana.. Netanyahu would like to systematically put millions of Palestinians in gas chambers and murder them? This statement is so devious, it shows either hatred for Israel or total misunderstanding of both the Israelis and the Final solution. You are simply using slander and libel to promote your rage. I’m sure many people in Israel would like the Palestinians gone – if only they could move to another country – but no one would be ready to commit any type of mass murder for that to happen. That’s just not what Israelis are like. Of course many Palestinians would love the Jews gone as well and unfortunately I am not sure they wouldn’t commit mass murder of Jews if they had the means to do it. We just saw the horrors that Hamas committed on Israeli civilians on Oct 7 and Palestinians pray every day for Palestine to be free of Jews from the river to the sea.
I think some people hate Israel because they see everything in terms of power struggle and they simply hate the powerful. This group includes the left wingers who always sides with the underdog even when the underdog is sadistic, immoral and creepy. They just don’t have it in their heart to feel sorry for the powerful. Those who truly feel sorry for the Palestinian civilians and I am one of them, can at the same time understand Israel’s side, while disapproving of its behavior when warranted.
Then another set of haters have the same old hatred of the ‘chosen’ people and the state of Israel embodiment of it: “Jews did not accept Jesus or Jews killed him or Jews refuted Mohamed or Jews are too powerful”. I don’t need to expand there, enough has been said already. I don’t know which of the 2 types of haters you are but you are certainly not making the church you represent look good.
You will most surely defend yourself strongly in a reply to my comment, like you did every time before and I most likely won’t reply because I don’t want to spend more time on that. No matter what I say, I also know I won’t change your animosity towards Israel and your self righteousness. Here’s a recent article on the topic:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2023-10-26/ty-article/.highlight/why-are-americans-tearing-down-posters-of-children-held-hostage-by-hamas/0000018b-6cce-d90b-a7df-7eceff960000
You are correct that I WAS going to parse your response (which, by the way, does not refute a single statement made in the comment you were responding to, except to make some euphemistic references to the Palestinian refugees in Arab countries), until I saw your very last line, and had to laugh. Of COURSE you would post an article from a Jewish newspaper in order to support your claims.
And that seems to be the difference here. My guess is that your sourcing is apparently all or almost all from Jewish periodicals and magazines, while my sourcing is from a wide variety of sources, from left, right and center. This is why I know, for a fact (despite your attempted refutation of it) that an increasing percentage of Palestinian civilians want an end to the violence and a two-State solution. You provide only anecdotal evidence in the way of an interview or two. I am talking about NGOs who are on the ground, and actually interact with hundreds, even thousands of Palestinian civilians, and have taken polls that speak volumes more than a few interviews ever could.
You are free to believe what you want to believe – about me, about Israel and Israelis (particularly their leaders and policies), about Palestinians, about the current situation. It is clear that, after accusing me of disingenuousness, you seem to have your own inherent bias (and perhaps even arrogance) to deal with.
I will simply say that you are either willfully blind or your reading comprehension needs some work if you actually believe that “Up to now, all your answers were…quite anti-Israel.” They were not. And even if they WERE, they were anti-Israeli POLICY. And given the current situation, I believe that pointing out what I did in my most recent comment was important for the very reason that people like you (despite your comment about caring about the Palestinian civilians, which I am not gainsaying) nevertheless take the approach of “Israel, right or wrong.”
It is THAT attitude and mindset that I address in my “anti-Israel” comments.
I am saddened at your (almost entirely inaccurate) diatribe against me. But I am not surprised by it, and I am (perhaps sadly) used to being misquoted and attacked.
So, there you go again! It seems that your interlocutor Betty is mostly right. On your points responding to her post: first, the publication she has linked to is HaAretz. You sneeringly refer to it as a “Jewish” publication as if no such thing could be valid or truthful on this subject. Well, it IS Israeli. And it is, I suppose, “Jewish”, although the diversity of their opinions, reporting and editorial staff is, I will say confidently, absolutely unique in the Middle East. AND, for what it’s worth, it is a left-oriented newspaper, pro-two states; pro-civil rights; anti-settlement; anti-theocratic. So, before you dismiss their writing, get yourself educated? Second, I too thought she was incorrect about Palestinian opinion on two states.. As a long-time advocate for two-states, and activist trying to influence American and Israeli policy, I was certain that a majority of Palestinians supported the idea. But guess what? I actually checked to update my information. That is unfortunately a fluid number. .Depending on what poll you look at, that number is now 23%, 33% or 43%, but shown in every poll to be dropping. And these are scientifically structured polls — Gallup, Pew, ArabNew/YouGov. The percentage in Israel has also fluctuated, from a majority to 33% and numbers in between. You are pulling numbers from where? (Might you be conflating Arab Israelis with Palestinians? From the same polling, 60% of Arab Israelis do support the two state idea.) The You/Gov results were interesting in other respects. For example, Almost two-thirds of those [Palestinians] surveyed (63%) said they did not feel represented by Hamas nor Fatah. Finally, on this point, opinion will change as circumstances change, on both sides. Two states is the only solution for a secure, democratic Israel and a fair, secure and hopefully democratic Palestine. (The latter would be the very first sovereign state of Palestine on this or any other soil by the way, no matter what the ignorant children clamoring in our streets are mewling about.) As for the other points raised by your interlocutor: she is 100% correct on the recent history of Jews in Arab countries, a story you dismissed with a wave of your ignorance. Read her account again and then check the history books. And she is right about Arab states refusing to resettle their fellow Arabs. Instead they kept them in wretched misery, in “camps”, foreclosing any possible advancement in their lives. Could they have been resettled and still kept alive their hopes for a state? Yes; Palestinian refugees are the only ones for whom the UN has not sought resettlement. Further, the Arab states could have created a Palestinian state largely in the original UN configuration when they controlled that territory, 1948-1967 In 1967 they again tried to exterminate Israel in a war, and lost that territory. They did not, and weaponizing them as they grew from 700,000 to 5 million, served their purpose. Or so they thought. You have distorted or fabricated facts to suit your stance, and your version of the expulsion and migration of Jews from Arab countries exposes your prejudice on this entire subject. Hey, it would be interesting to hear a correction from you on the latter topic. Maybe gain some credibility on the rest?
I really don’t have the time to parse lengthy responses, especially when there SO MUCH to correct. I will settle for just a couple of points.
First, re Haaretz, it is true that they have had pro “two-State solution” Op-Eds. But as a newspaper (i.e., their editorial board, etc.), they are, and always have been “Israel, right or wrong.” So I am not incorrect. You are simply trying to conflate a few op-ed pieces with the overall mindset and approach of the newspaper. Sorry, you but don’t get to do that.
Second, and quite ironically, with regard to the “center” of your comments, you actually agree with me more than you disagree. Our “numbers” are not that far off, and I have already stated where my “numbers” come from.
Finally, your history remains a bit fuzzy. When the partition was first proposed, Israel was offered 62% of the land – despite the fact that the existing Palestinians outnumbered them 2:1, and thus fully expected at least 50% of the land, which they did not get. That is, in fact, part of why we have an ongoing war in the first place. It is part (but only part) of why the surrounding Arab states went to war with Israel in 1949, almost immediately after the creation of the Israeli State.
And Israel has done nothing but make things worse since then, – ignoring U.N. directives and sanctions, balkanizing the Palestinians and creating a semi-apartheid State, continuing to steal Palestinian lands for Jewish settlements, killing Palestinians with impunity (MANY times, in many different situations). As well, like the U.S government and the Native Americans, the Israelis have broken every “treaty” or promise ever made. (Yes, the PLO also rejected a treaty that they felt was unenforceable, and thy also felt that Israel would break anyway.)
Had Israel even once shown any measure of humility, compassion or concern for those it displaced – had it made any real attempt to seek a realistic solution in 1948-1950, it is possible that ALL of what has occurred could have been avoided. But the Israelis remained stubborn, arrogant, and utterly insensitive to what the creation of their State had caused.
The Hitler government pushed the Jews into smaller and smaller enclaves, the better to control them economically, politically, and militarily (and to make it easier to kill more of them at one time). This is exactly what Israel has done to the Palestinians. Israel has become the very thing it hated, that it fought to free itself from. And it wonders why Hamas, Hezbollah and others continue to attack it. Separate and apart from their (hopeless) goal of eliminating Israel and creating some sort of mini-caliphate, they feel they have quite legitimate reasons to remain “at war” with Israel. (Though actions like those of 10/7 remain abhorrent in all cases.) And given history, one can hardly blame them.
Your response is a perfect example of distortion and misuse of numbers. One example is so easy to point out; a reader can judge the quality of all of your responses by it. HaAretz Is a consistent and principled voice for justice for Palestinians and all Israelis for decades. Beyond editorials, their reporting has been unsparing in calling out Israel’s transgressions and working for change and reform. You either know that which means you will do anything to distort the truth or you really don’t which means you are pathetically ignorant or unwilling to face the truth. You say all of that doesn’t matter because in the end they are “Israel right or wrong”. If that means that they are Isreali and –duh– do NOT call for the elimination of their country then I suppose that’s correct. UWS readers are pretty smart. Your diatribes are enough for them to judge your state of mind and the validity of your claims. They are capable of discovering amd discerning the complex truths of this story. I leave the stage and platform to your endless distortions. Our neighbors will know what to do.
Even if I am incorrect about Haaretz (and I must add here that it is through my own reading of its online edition that I developed my overall sense of it, though you tell me that my sense is wrong), how does that have anything to do with your opening comment that my apparent misreading of the Haaretz mindset is “…a perfect example of distortion and misuse of numbers” since no numbers were included in your response?
Are you conflating things again?
The link to the article I quoted has absolutely nothing to do with my ‘diatribe’ about Israel. It was a last minute add-on because I had just discovered that article in an Israeli paper writing precisely on the topic of the fliers in NYC that started this whole conversation. The article was not at all a reference to what I wrote, it was all about the fliers in NYC and nothing else! How strange that you went off a tangent assuming that “your sourcing is apparently all or almost all from Jewish periodicals and magazines, while my sourcing is from a wide variety of sources, from left, right and center.” You’ll know how ridiculous your answer was, when you’ll read it.. I guess that was too much to ask.
First of all, I read many, many papers of all political sides and because I speak French, English and Hebrew and can read a bit of Arabic, I read from Al-Jazeera to LeMonde, LeFigaro, BBC, CNN and NYTimes of course, The Times of Israel, I24News, JPost and many more. I am quite a news junkie actually, and not the kind of person who only reads what she wants to hear, even sometimes searching Iranian or Turkish news.
Second, Haaretz is one of the most left wing paper in Israel. Before the war, it was all about how horrible Netanyahu is and how democracy is about to be lost. Since the war, they try to show a bit more unity and less criticism.
Regarding the percentage of Palestinian civilians who want a two-state solution, true, showing a few videos is not scientific evidence and I won’t try to convince you, I’d love to be wrong! However it’s my personal opinion based on so many readings and views. Anecdotally, just today, Palestinian “icon” Ahed Tamimi posted on her Instagram “We are waiting for you in every city in the West Bank, from Hebron to Jenin. We will slit your throat and you will find that what Hitler did to you was a joke. We will drink your blood and eat your brains. Come on, we’re waiting for you.” When I heard it, I couldn’t believe it and it was gone from her Instagram but it was in all the papers and a reliable friend of mine saw it before it was removed. The cute blond has shown her true face and evil soul to the world. And today too, I saw a video of an older woman in charge in Gaza speaking to a large crowd of religious women: “Why did God let the Jews come to Palestine? He wanted them to be gathered all in one place so we could kill them”. And she said, ‘not the Israelis, not the Zionists, but the Jews’. But let’s even assume these are extremists, here another ‘anecdotal’ video showing ‘moderate’, educated Palestinians from the West Bank answering the question: “What will happen to the Israelis when you take back Palestine of 1948 (Israel)?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJkxOF9QqEk There are many more videos made by this Canadian Jewish gay guy asking questions to random Palestinians and Israelis in the street of the West Bank and of Israel but I’ve stopped watching a while ago because it’s too depressing: https://www.youtube.com/@CoreyGilShusterAskProject/videos Israelis have different, nuanced narratives from left to right, secular to religious, some few extremes, but Palestinians are stuck in one and the same narrative: “Jewish colonizers came in 1948 and stole our land. We need to get rid of them by force and retake our land. We are very patient and by the grace of Allah, it will happen some day”. They deny any historical link between Judaism and Israel, have endless conspiracy theories etc.. That’s the Middle east, that’s the Arab mentality. They are nice things to them too: I love some aspects of Arabic culture, music, hospitality, food, ancien architecture etc.. But they don’t care about the facts, they don’t care about the truth, they don’t question anything, most of them are bigots and that’s why it’s so hard to make peace with them. Sad.
STOP IT!
Irritating me getting these endless BOORISH comments.
Yes. You’re right. Usefulness of these comments is over. Apologies and Case made for better or worse
I would like to ask a serious question here.
Does anyone really believe that all of the actions thus far taken by Israel – air strikes, white phosphorous bombs, evacuation from north to south, etc. – has done one iota of good in terms of disrupting Hamas or helping to get the hostages back? Or that the ground invasion of Gaza will do very much good in either regard?
I really want to know if there are people who believe this, and why.
It is certainly a leap for the article to say this is an anti-Semitic act. As someone mentioned, maybe he had PTSD. Really, who can say without talking to this person or at least talking to a source who is familiar with his views/behavior (but the latter would still be hearsay). Personally, I’ve seen the flyers posted just outside of schools and have felt that they might be very frightening for children to see. If someone DOES object to the flyers, I can see them posting another flyer next to these to express themselves. (Yes, I recognize the illegality of posting — trying to think of an OFF-line alternative to introduce dialogue into the public square — used to be coffee shops/cafes had bulletin boards where folks could post things like this.)
I’d like to add this to my previous comment: perhaps the poster disagrees with the policies of the Israeli government. That would not make him anti-Semitic either.
Wendy:
“I’d like to add this to my previous comment: perhaps the poster disagrees with the policies of the Israeli government. That would not make him anti-Semitic either.”
Sadly, that is a nuance that all too many people do not understand. They equate ANY criticism of Israel or Israeli policy with anti-Semitism, which as you suggest is incorrect.
In fact, it is worth noting that, despite supporting retaliation for the Hamas attack, the number of Israelis calling for Netanyahu’s resignation are growing by the day. Because they blame HIM for what happened (i.e., Hamas may have enacted the attack, but the man who has run on a nearly single-minded platform of keeping Israelis “safe” somehow COMPLETELY “missed” this).
How can I UNSUBSCRIBE to this endless conversation?
I can’t say it makes me feel especially safe as a Jewish person knowing that removing littersome flyers now carries a risk of someone sharing pictures of me and comparing my actions to synagogue vandalism.